Marketing on the Record Episode 4: Remote Doesn’t Mean Disconnected: Holland Goodrow on Marketing a Remote Law Firm

Keith Edwards

Yeah. How’d you find PLG?

Holland Goodrow

It’s a great story on career development. And I think that this is something that so many people can forget about because it’s a simple thing, but it’s just network, and it’s keeping active. So I was graciously invited to this legal marketing extraordinaires group on Facebook and want to put them on blast. It is a private group. But a really kind mentor of mine added me to that group over 15 years ago now, and as soon as I got into legal marketing and got to know her. And so I was on social media, I was on LinkedIn, and trying to look for a job back in legal marketing. Because I took a little bit of a hiatus like a lot of us do, and then it just brings you back in and you realize that you miss it.

One day I happened to get on and I see this post, it’s a recruiter in that group saying, “I’m looking for…” And then she lists this job description. And I was like, “Wait a second, that sounds really interesting.” So I click, I read it more. I’m like, “Okay, that sounds a lot like my background.” So I contact her, she contacts me. And the cool thing about it is, like I said, I saw it posted in that group. There’s no other way I would’ve seen it. And I went to go back and look for it. I know who the recruiter was. Someone shared it from her post somewhere else, a member of that group. And I went back and even posted and said, “Hey, does anybody remember who posted this or was it you? I’d like to thank you for sharing it because I have a new job and I’m really excited about this law firm.” So it was really just this perfect timing thing that happened and it obviously was meant to be. So that’s how I found PLG.

Keith Edwards

I love that story. I mean, how many times have I shared some post for a friend and never really realized whatever happened to it? Okay. So for listeners who are new to the idea, let’s talk more about this idea of a virtual or distributed firm. What is a remote law firm?

Holland Goodrow

In many ways, but not in all the ways that you would assume. So it was something that I had to learn and understand myself before I even took this leap into virtual work for legal marketing, because I was taking a risk on a firm that… I’m based in New Orleans, PLG is based in DC and across 26 states like you mentioned. But I interviewed completely remotely for this job, which is kind of more commonplace now. But for me, it was completely new, especially accepting a job, having not met my bosses face-to-face, only having wonderful video conversations, which we all knew we can do at this point now. So that was a little bit of a, wow, this feels kind of crazy accepting a job and trusting this new law firm, new to me, not new, this law firm that I haven’t even sat in their office. I haven’t sat across a table for an interview. It was such a good fit. I clicked immediately with the whole leadership team and the few partners that I met. So that was my first dive into it.

And then I really started learning how it works. Because they, through my interview process, talked about this culture and the success of the lawyers and how they work together and the team feel and all of these great selling points that you always hear. And I was like, “Gosh, this is going to be tough in a fully virtual world, but they seem like they have great intentions. Let me take this dive.” And I did. And the culture that they told me I would have here is real and it’s pretty dang special, because I truly attribute it to our leadership, Ben Lieber and Marlene Laro. I mean, there’s really no other way to explain it because we all worked remote and we know that you can feel a little disconnected.

I’m so close with all of my team members and leadership and all of our partners, better than I’ve been at any other law firm in person every day for five days a week and plus a lot of weekends and events. So in addition to my experience with the culture and onboarding as an employee at PLG, then I got to see how a remote law firm actually works. And it is with sophisticated technology, of course, and connectivity and availability. That’s a big piece. It’s also intentional decisions of, “Hey, we really encourage you to be on camera. We don’t expect you to be interview ready every day, but just be on camera with us. And if you’re in your sweatshirt, that’s fine. That’s the beauty of the work.” And then intentional meeting settings, so you’re not meeting all the time just to get FaceTime, that’s not what we want to do.

But we realize that, hey, because we’re not in person together all the time, practice group meetings once a month become a lot more than just a practice group meeting and a status update. So we encourage partners to attend different practice group meetings to complimentary areas. I attend almost every practice group meeting every month because that’s part of my job to understand what is the pulse in each practice group. Where are the opportunities that I’m hearing? Am I hearing some cross marketing opportunities and staying on top of it? So that’s my way to stay connected virtually. But also it gives the opportunity for the lawyers to be on the call with me and say, “Hey, Holland, is this something that we should build upon or is this something that has some legs? Can we talk about that separately with the three of us tomorrow?” So it keeps me in the loop of that walking down the hallway feeling when you’re in a traditional office.

We also do in-person events. So we are across 26 states in all major markets. So whether they’re in DC, Manhattan, or Northern California or Southern California, we do meetups, lunches and cocktail hours, client events, the same you would do as a traditional law firm, except we probably just have a lot better attendance because we don’t do a ton of them. And so you really do look forward to seeing your colleagues that you see on camera every day.

And then just fresh off the schedule here two weeks ago we had our all firm retreat in DC. We did that earlier in October and it was really great. It started probably, I’m not exaggerating, 20 plus conversations within five days from partners that some of them I had not worked regularly with. So it opened a lot of doors. So I would say that intentional setting, whether it’s a digital or an online meeting or it’s an in-person event for a dinner or a retreat in a more formal sense, it makes the engagement with each other a lot more meaningful. And again, the team that we have built here is just a good group of people to be around.

Keith Edwards

This is sort of off the subject. I had this experience of when we had our first in-person meeting after months of virtual work.

Holland Goodrow

Yes.

Keith Edwards

And I don’t know if you felt this way, but it almost feels like you’re meeting a celebrity. We know each other, but we haven’t had that face-to-face. We’re just not used to it as human beings, I don’t think.

Holland Goodrow

It’s a weird feeling. You’re exactly right, because the amount of times I said it and I received someone saying, “Oh my gosh, here you are in person. You look different now,” Because we have our headshots and then we’re on camera and we might not be dressed up or whatever it may be. But it is that exciting, like you’re running into a friend you haven’t seen in 10 years and that is exciting.

Keith Edwards

It sounds like you have a culture of it’s okay to audit a meeting. It’s okay to come into a meeting when you maybe aren’t necessarily required as an attendee just to learn more about what’s going on. It’s the equivalent of walking down the hall and peering in a conference room.

Holland Goodrow

That’s a great way… I might steal that from you actually, Keith, the equivalent of walking down a hall because when you walk down a hall, and I’ve done that in the past where it’s like, “Oh wait, there’s Holland, come here. We were just talking about the website.” And so that is the perfect explanation of what our culture does with the intentionality of meetings and events across groups and encouraging our legal teams to join the practice meetings too, because they’re an integral part of that process as well and the conversation. And then like I said, they are taking notes and listening for opportunities, but also being there as a resource to answer a live question. And then of course the bonus is we get a lot more face time with each other that way. And we’re actually working as a team, which of course, as we know cliche enough, it builds a culture. It does. And the people too. The people are core.

Keith Edwards

I want to talk a little bit about the market in general, taking a step back and thinking about other virtual firms. In legal, you know we like listings, rankings. I couldn’t find much of a ranking of virtual firms or distributed firms. PLG seems to be one of the biggest in the space. How many players do you think there are seriously in this space and what do you see happening in the future for the category?

Holland Goodrow

Yeah. So what I loved about PLG was that their story started, like you mentioned earlier, over 15 years ago. So there was an opportunity that Ben Lieber saw within the legal world and said, “I think this can work in a different way.” And it was one of the first ones that created a fully remote atmosphere for traditional legal work and the standard of high quality legal work is the key. So on a national level, it’s hard because some firms embrace the name, some firms have a 2.0 version of their firm where they have their traditional firm and now they have a virtual office that’s an official location, which is a really great model too. So in the distributed space, I would say there’s probably about a dozen, give or take, national players in the distributed model firm industry. And then I would say, of course, there’s definitely a lot more regional and local firms that give small group practitioners an opportunity to work together, maybe across states or whatever it may be. But nationally, I would say 12 or so key players in the market.

There’s not many industry specific rankings that I’ve found so far for distributed models. Of course, there’s as many as you want in the legal industry. We did win one, I think it was last year, Legal Tech Breakthrough Awards, Virtual Firm of the Year. So we did win that one year. We’ve also won inclusive awards and culture awards, and then of course your regular chambers, best lawyers, best law firms, all of those. We’re right there too.

Keith Edwards

Before we get back to the show, I want to take a quick minute to talk about Good2bSocial, the team behind this podcast and the agency I’m proud to call home. If you’re tuning in, you probably already know that legal marketing is in constant flux. What worked yesterday is never guaranteed to work today. At Good2bSocial, staying ahead of the curve is what we’re all about. We’re privileged to work with all kinds of clients, from AmLaw 100 firms and boutique practices to legal technology companies and even bar associations. And in every case, we bring the latest thinking and most effective cutting edge strategies to the table. When AI started reshaping how consumers find and evaluate legal services online, we were already on it, developing AIO strategies to help our clients stay visible and competitive in our new zero-click reality. From SEO, AIO, and content marketing to social media, paid advertising, and website design everything we do is built around what’s working right now and what’s coming next with a singular focus on driving measurable results.

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So talk a little bit about the makeup of the attorneys.

Holland Goodrow

So PLG is very intentional with our growth. While we might be one of the quickest growing distributed models in the country right now, it’s very, very intentional and very strategic. So right off the bat, when you go to our website, you start seeing us talking about what we build our brand around is the experience of our lawyers and the caliber of legal expertise that you are getting when you hire PLG, and they also happen to have an extremely competitive rate. So the rate is not the selling point. The selling point is a big law, ex-government, former in-house. Usually, I mean, our average is 17 years of experience or more. So that is interesting because while we don’t have the overhead of traditional law firms and we don’t have a traditional sense of client relationship, office, boardroom, these kind of things, we have the flexibility to be more competitive on rates and still offer the same caliber of lawyer.

And that is where PLG has really found our niche, and each lawyer before them appreciates that as they come. So they’re looking at, who am I going to be working with in my team? And so when they start clicking on bios and see Ivy law schools and former in-house at major corporations, we represent 18% of the Fortune 100. We also have former government officials. And so it’s this unique and very impressive group of professionals working at PLG. So we can sell our work alone on the reputation of our lawyers and their bios. But then we get to bring in our rate flexibility. And then it becomes the question of, “Well, why wouldn’t we try you guys?” So it’s really, really impressive.

As a marketer, it’s very exciting to work with a group of professionals like I have at PLG. They’re at the top of their game. They’re smart, and they’re enjoying their legal career again, which is a really interesting part of the equation that I have loved and found so much fulfillment in working with PLG partners. Because if you think about a partner who is, again, 17 plus years into their career, but most likely 20 plus years or so in their career, they’ve worked in big law, they worked in government, like I mentioned, they’ve worked in-house and something was missing, not that it was wrong either way, but they felt like they needed a change. So then they start looking for this change. And I am part of our recruiting process and go to NALSC conferences and meet with our prospective partners. And so I get to hear a lot of the stories of why they’re looking or what they’re looking for, and it gives me an opportunity to hear all of the different reasons a lawyer might choose PLG or a professional might choose PLG looking for a remote job.

And so I’m hearing partners say, “Well, I’ve built this practice and my clients are so loyal and they love me, but I’ve had these mandatory rate increases every year and I have no control over it. And I love my client. I don’t want to lose them, but they’ve straight out told me I’m not going to go through another one of these mandatory rate increases. I’m not going to be able to stick around.” Well, for people who build on relationships like lawyers should, and most of them do, and all of ours do, you don’t want to lose that relationship. That is a client you have worked so hard for, or clients. And so then I’m helping them onboard, I’m walking them through that, and that’s part of my job. And very important to me is being that resource for the new partner in their first day, month, weeks as we go on to make sure they’re getting what we said we were going to deliver in their interview process.

And I hear it, but I also see it in their personalities from the time I talked to them when they were making their decision and then to the time that they’re now a partner at PLG, the joy they bring back into their practice is really something to see. So when they come to PLG, they’re going, “Oh wait, I can just set my rate for my client and tell them this is my rate and you’re not going to tell me what I need to do with it?” And we said, “Nope, you tell us your rate and we’re good with it.” “Do I have to increase it at the end of the year?” “This is your client, you take the relationship, you’re the lead.” The lawyer’s happy, the client’s happy. It’s a good system.

Keith Edwards

You don’t have associates, right?

Holland Goodrow

Yes, that’s right. For the most part.

Keith Edwards

For the most part. How does that work exactly? And how do you nurture legal talent?

Holland Goodrow

Yeah. So that is true. Our model does not necessarily bring in associates intentionally. So we have counsel and special counsel and partner level lawyers. So there is a place for a lot of different levels of experience. Intentional decision about the associate and really not recruiting for associates is because we know what our law firm can do and what it can’t do great, and we don’t have that one-to-one mentorship ability. I get why most traditional law firms say, “Hey, we need to get back in the office.” Our recruiting efforts require it. We require this mentorship and this program and teaching them and showing them by example, and that is a little bit more difficult in a virtual space. We know and we believe that associates still have a very strong place in traditional law, and that is for the mentorship and for learning and honing their skills, so when they are furthering their career and they want the flexibility and they want to grow a book of business, then they have another place to land another option.

So from day to day, I would say the biggest indicator in the success of how we do that without associates, because that is a big question I get all the time from prospective partners, is when you have rate flexibility and you have different levels of experience of that variation of the years, A, we already have competitive rates, but B, we can be flexible within that rate structure. So we might be doing alternative fee arrangements or a flat fee agreement. Or again, the main selling point is we have partner level experience shaped through big law for the most part for a different price.

So when you have the same partner six months ago at… I’m now hearing, a few weeks ago I was hearing $2,000 in the Northeast. The other day I heard $3,000. So we are really getting to this level of hourly rate that is prohibitive for a lot of businesses just for the single point of the cost. Whether they can afford it or not, it’s still a decision. And so you have this partner billing at, let’s just call it 1,500. So then six months later, the client’s still working with their favorite partner on their most important employment deals or IP or an acquisition, but yet their bill is less for more hours. And so then it just makes sense.

So the conversation about, “Wait, we don’t want to pay all partner hours. Where are your associates? We’re not going to do this.” Well, we do have AI and it is here and obviously we’re talking about it, so it’s an obvious factor. It does not replace a lawyer. It is never going to replace an associate or a junior associate or a senior associate. It makes all of us more efficient, and that is how we should use it. You should hire great people who can use the tools that you provide to make them better, more efficient, but they’re already smart.

Keith Edwards

Thank you. That’s a really good explanation. I want to focus on legal marketing. Talk a little bit about the marketing advantages of a distributed model.

Holland Goodrow

I would say personally, starts with hiring the right team because this firm would not be what it is without the people and the type of people that we have in our firm that truly believe in our model and in entrepreneurial spirit, but also teamwork and all of this. So from a marketing perspective, you do have to be a kind of person that’s willing to get on camera and join the meetings and not be sitting back and just listening. You have to be somebody that’s ready to be at the table and speak up and have a voice. And I’m empowered to have that voice here, but also naturally I’m always going to have that voice. I’m not going to be somewhere that doesn’t allow me to be at the table. It’s being a person that’s available to be called on when you’re needed, being responsive, being excited.

I think that that would be something I really find is necessary to say in legal marketing. We all work really hard and same with Good2bSocial, same with every law firm, every marketer. We work hard and we have a lot of different personalities that we work for and with. Be a person that someone can trust, be a person that the lawyer, the partner, can ask the question and say, “Hey Holland, I actually am embarrassed to ask you this, but…” And I tell our new partners that every time I meet them, I say, “Hey, by the way, just suspend everything you think I’m assuming you know and you’re assuming I know and just let’s talk, because that’s when we really get down to the meat of it.” And so if I’m comfortable asking the questions and they’re comfortable talking to me and talking me through the beginning and getting to the point of what they’re trying to achieve, then we’re going to have better result.

For me personally, legal marketing in a virtual environment, it is about relationships and the culture that you are bringing to the company, and that’s what makes it work here. I’m sure there’s a lot of other great ways to do it, but I truly believe in those relationships lead to just amazing things.

Keith Edwards

Are people more likely to go rogue and sign up for some random sponsorship. We’ve all been in that situation in legal marketing where it’s like so-and-so committed to this and you’re like. So I’m wondering if compared to a traditional law firm, if you deal with more of that kind of thing.

Holland Goodrow

I would say compared to my experience in traditional law, which was about 15 years before I joined PLG, I would say less actually. Maybe because you’re not sitting at the lunch table with the managing partner being like, “Hey, so my son’s on this soccer team and we really need a sponsor.” The other side of the coin is we still, we approach it the same way we approach new partners joining and new team members joining. If it’s important to that partner, if it’s important to your client or to the relationship or to you, we’re probably going to do it anyway.

I mean, I can say personally, I asked Ben to sponsor this fundraiser that my husband’s a part of and it’s a cook-off, but it raises money for pediatric childhood cancer, brain cancer, Hogs for the Cause, I’ll give y’all a plug here, but it’s a credible organization. And I asked Ben, when I’d been working here less than a year, I was like, “Even $200 would be awesome.” He did a business sponsorship and that was sight unseen. And so I would say it’s less of these random ones that I didn’t know about and like, “Oh, you grabbed the wrong logo and you resized it and it’s blurry.” That doesn’t happen as much. But I would say that lawyers are comfortable enough to say, “Hey, this is something that’s really important to me. Do you think PLG would be a part of it?”

Keith Edwards

Cool. Those are all my questions. I mean, I think we’ve covered a lot of great ground. Anything else that you’d like us to know?

Holland Goodrow

Yeah, I think that, like I said, I do see the conversation about distributed models becoming more and more relevant as we attend NALSC conferences and events and talk to the recruiters who are talking to these traditional law partners who are looking for a move. A, it’s getting the recruiters comfortable with that conversation of introducing a model like PLG, but also getting the lawyers and the community involved. My legal marketing association, I’m on the board in the Southwest and they all have questions for me like, “How does this work and how do you do this?” And, “You do this, this and this and it’s all virtual?” And so it’s a lot of myth busting, I think. And I’m excited to know that more and more people will know about this. And all of your listeners, I’m so glad that they’re interested in this too. It’s a very exciting industry and it’s a very exciting way to approach law, because it gives you a different approach. And usually, people who are willing to do that are really cool people to work for and with. And so that’s a key to it.

So I do think that, while some other distributed models may be different from PLG, I’m not doing the marketing speil right now, but PLG is really different and I can confidently say that. And so that’s what I would say is we are doing some of the traditional things and we are well on our way. I just learned that we’re going to start a new website process soon, which as a legal marketer, it’s like, okay, here we go. But I’m so excited about it. We’re going to do a brand refresh. So whoever’s listening today, please check us out in the next… Follow us on LinkedIn, check us out in the next six months and then a year. And then hopefully not more than a year, but we know how websites take because we are going to have a brand and a refresh that’s really going to be reminiscent of what we are, what our core was, what we were founded on, but also how we’ve grown and how we’ve adapted for client needs. So I think that’s really exciting to watch us in the next year or so.

Keith Edwards

Well, Holland, thank you so much. Your enthusiasm is contagious and I love hearing your story and your experience and I really appreciate it.

Holland Goodrow

Keith, this was so great. You give me motivation and excitement. This is fun. We need to have another conversation another day. This is great.

Keith Edwards

We will. Absolutely. Okay.

Holland Goodrow

Okay. Thank you so much.

Keith Edwards

Thank you so much. We’ll talk soon. That’s a wrap on this episode of Marketing on the Record. Thanks for hanging out with us. If you enjoyed today’s conversation, don’t forget to hit subscribe so you’ll never miss an episode. And if you’re ready to take your legal marketing to the next level, head on over to good2bsocial.com. We’d love to help. Until next time, I’m Keith Edwards and we’ll see you on the record.